Rud istvan

Wuhan Coronavirus–a WUWT Scientific Commentary
Guest Blogger / February 10, 2020

Guest post by Rud Istvan

Introduction

The Wuhan coronavirus potential pandemic has been much in the news recently. ctm discussed my doing an update to a rather long comment a few weeks ago. I first agreed but then demurred until now.

The reasons for agreeing were the numerous analogies (below) to climate change ‘science’ and ‘prognostications’—albeit on usefully shortened testable time frames like this year, not 2100. Examples below include assuming we know what we actually don’t based on models, and reporting worst case but unlikely scenarios as ‘likely” because ‘if it bleeds, it leads’.

First reason for originally demurring was that the factual situation was too fluid for rational qualitative analysis—alarmist rumors were flying all over, like from ‘reputable’ UK research groups who modeled an R0 near 4 (horrible, as defined below). Pure unsubstantiated alarmism, just like AGW prognostications.

Second reason (ironically), I came down with a wicked, likely coronavirus (less runny nose, more sore throat and cough) cold last week and am still recovering at day nine. So was too sick to even think about a guest post until yesterday evening day 8. Finishing this draft today merely proves that I am finally recovering on day 9 and that it probably was a human common cold corona virus since the typical rhino duration is ‘only’ 5 days, not 9-10.

Qualifications

None, if you are a CAGW ‘believer’. I am not a microbiologist, a virologist, or an infectious disease MD. A CAGW/skeptic ‘critique’ all too familiar at WUWT.

But, I served as CEO for a decade of a small private company that attempted (unsuccessfully for reasons beyond the scope of this post) to commercialize a novel topical antimicrobial PERSISTENT against all bacteria, all fungi, and many viruses including all colds, influenza and pinkeye. I had to teach myself the topic and its medical ramifications in order not to mislead my investors or misuse their several million dollars. Plus, we formed a pre-eminent science advisory board on infectious disease. Plus, in the 2009 swine flu scare, my corporate board forced interactions with NIH (Dr. Fauci), CDC, the FDA, and even the National Security Council (special briefing in the EOB at the WH, 2 hours, spooky)—because our FDA regulatory guy DIED in June 2009 from the swine flu contracted while on a cruise vacation to Mexico with his family (more below).

Those not interested in the background science sections can skip to the last sections of this longish comment, where the intervening basic science is applied to Wuhan coronavirus without further explanation.

Basic Virology

What follows perhaps oversimplifies an unavoidably complex topic, like sea level rise or atmospheric feedbacks to CO2 in climate science.

There are three main types of human infectious microorganisms: bacteria, fungi, and viruses. (I skip important complicating stuff like malaria or giardia.) Most human bacteria are helpful; the best example is the vast gut biome. In human disease some bacteria (typhoid, plague, tetanus, gangrene, sepsis, strep) and certain classes of fungi (candida yeasts) can cause serious disease, as do some human viruses (polio, smallpox, measles, yellow fever, Zika, Ebola).

There are two basic forms of bacteria (Prokaryotes and Archaea, neither having a genetic cell nucleus). Methanogens are exclusively Archaean; most methanotrophs are Prokaryotes. Membrane bound photosynthetic organelle containing cyanobacteria are the evolutionary transition from bacteria to all Eukaryotes (cells having a separate membrane bound genetic nucleus) like phytoplankton, fungi, and us. Both Prokaryote and Eukaryote single cell (and all higher) life forms have a basic thing in common—they can reproduce by themselves in an appropriate environment.

Viruses are none of the above. They are not ‘alive’; they are genetic parasites. They can only reproduce by infecting a living cell that can already reproduce itself. The ‘nonliving’ viral genetic machinery hijacks the reproductive machinery of a living host cell and uses it to replicate virions (individual virus particles) until the host cell ‘bursts’ and the new virions bud out in search of new hosts.

There are two basic virus forms, and two basic genetics.

Form

1. Viruses are either ‘naked’ or ‘enveloped’. A naked virus like cold causing rhino has just two structural components, an inner genetic whatever code (only the two basic types–DNA and RNA–are important for this comment) and an outer protective ‘capsid’ protective viral protein coat. An example is cold producing rhinovirus in the family picornavirus (which also includes polio).

2. Enveloped viruses like influenza and corona (Wuhan) include a third outer lipid membrane layer outside the capsid, studded with partly viral and partly host proteins acquired from the host cell at budding. These are used to infect the next host cell by binding to cell surface proteins. The classic example is influenza (internal genetic machinery A or B) designated HxNy for the flavor of the (H) hemagglutinin and (N) neuraminidase protein variants on the lipid membrane surface.

Conceptual images of both virion forms follow from CDC.

Naked Rhino Enveloped Influenza

clip_image002[1] clip_image004[1]

Genetic Type

The second major distinction is the basic genetics. Viral genetic machinery can be either RNA based or DNA based. There is a huge difference. All living cells (the viral hosts) have evolved DNA copy error machinery, but not RNA copy error machinery. That means RNA based viruses will accumulate enormous ‘transcription’ errors with each budding. As an actual virology estimate, a single rhinovirus infected mucosal cell might produce 100000 HRV virion copies before budding. But say 99% are defective unviable transcription errors. That math still says each mucosal cell infected by a single HRV virion will produce about 10 infective virions despite the severe RNA mutation problem. The practical clinical implication is that when you first ‘catch’ a HRV cold, the onset to clinical symptoms (runny nose) is very fast, usually less than 24 hours.

There is a related epidemiological consequence of great concern. It has been proven possible for a single mucosal cell to be infected ‘simultaneously’ by more than one viral seriotype. That is a simple math probability of virions and host cells Example: you have an easily transmissible ‘normal’ coronavirus cold already (defined below), go to Wuhan and also contract Wuhan. In your body those two different coronaviruses can now both be replicating in the same host cells, and because of RNA replication are indiscriminately exchanging genetic material. So you might end up with an attenuated virulence Wuhan, or a more virulent Wuhan—but most likely both.

The history of the 2009 Swine flu scare showed this. The novel new H1N1 seriotype started in Mexico, where my guy contracted his early fatal infection. For reasons explained below, flu is strongly seasonal. It was winter in South America, so the first hard hit country was Argentina. The mortality data were horrific (5.5%). But, this in hindsight meant the most virulent strains were already burning themselves out, since dead people cannot replicate virions. By the time swine flu reached the North American winter several months later, it was already significantly less virulent (1-2%, still very bad). What actually saved the situation was that based on Argentina, the world appropriately panicked, commandeered global conventional flu vaccine production, and crashed through a swine flu vaccine in just under 6 months at the expense of the normal next year stockpile.

Upper Respiratory Tract viral infections.

So-called URI’s have only two causes in humans: common colds, and influenza. Colds have three distinguishing symptoms–runny nose, sore throat, and cough—all caused not by the virus but by the immune system response to it. Influenza adds two more symptoms: fever and muscular ache. Physicians know this well, almost never test for the actual virus seriotype, and prescribe aspirin for flu but not colds. Much of what follows in this section is based on somewhat limited actual data, since there has been little clinical motivation to do extensive research. A climate analogy would be sea surface temperature and ocean heat content before ARGO. Are there estimates? Yes. Are there good estimates? No.

Common cold URI’s stem from three viral types: RNA rhinovirus (of which there are about 99 seriotypes but nobody knows for sure) causing about 75% of all common colds, RNA coronaviruses, for which (excluding SARS, MERS, and Wuhan) there are only 4 known human seriotypes causing about 20% of common colds, and DNA adenoviruses (about 60 human seriotypes, but including lots of non-cold symptom seriotypes like conjunctivitis (pink eye and pharyngoconjunctivitis) causing about 5% of common colds.

Another climate change related analogy. The internet (including Wikipedia) gets the previous paragraph’s facts mostly wrong. For example, Wiki distinguishes picornviruses from rhinoviruses without realizing the later is a subset of the former, so double counts.

Available data says rhinovirus seriotypes are ubiquitous but individually not terribly infective, coronavirus seriotypes are few but VERY infective, and adenoviruses are neither. This explains, given the previous RNA mutation problem, why China and US are undertaking strict Wuhan quarantine measures.

This also explains why there is no possibility of a common cold vaccine: too many viral targets. You catch a cold, you get temporary (RNA viruses are constantly mutating) immunity to that virus. You next cold is simply a different virus, which is why the average adult has 2-4 colds per year.

This also explains why adenovirus is not very infective. It is a DNA virus, so mutates slowly, so the immune memory is longer lasting. In fact, in 2011 the FDA approved (for military use only) a vaccine against adeno pharyngoconjuntivitis that was a big problem in basic training. (AKA PCF, or PC Fever, highly contagious, very debilitating, and unlike similar high fever strep throat untreatable with antibiotics.) In the first two years of mandatory PCF vaccine use, military PCF disease incidence reduced 100 fold.

These data expanded to influenza also explain why the annual flu shot is so hit or miss. The intent is to match the most common HxNy A or B types from end of this season for vaccination next season. That guess is never perfect. Plus, RNA based influenza mutates rapidly. So even IF the annual flu shot was a good initial match, the flu that spreads by the end of the vaccinated season will be the bits the guess missed—basic Darwinian evolution at work explaining the limited efficacy of the annual flu shot.

A clinical sidebar about URI’s. Both are worse in winter, because people are more indoors in closer infectious proximity. But colds have much less seasonality than flus. Summer colds are common. Summer flus aren’t.

There is a differential route of transmission explanation for this empirical observation. Colds are spread primarily by contact, while flus are spread primarily by inhalation. You have a cold, you politely (as taught) cover your sneeze or cough with a hand, then open a door using its doorknob, depositing your fresh virions on it. The person behind you opens the door, picking up your virions, then touches the mouth or nose (or eyes) before washing hands. That person is now probably infected. This is also why alcohol hand sanitizers have been clinically proven ineffective against colds. They will denature enveloped corona and adeno, but have basically no effect on the by far more prevalent naked rhinos.

There is an important corollary to this contact transmission fact. Infectivity via the contact route of transmission depends on how long a virion remains infective on an inanimate surface. This depends on the virion, the surface (hard doorknob or ‘soft’ cardboard packaging), and the environment (humidity, temperature). The general epidemiological rule of thumb for common colds and flus is at most 4 days viability. This corollary is crucial for Wuhan containment, discussed below.

The main flu infection route is inhalation of infected aspirate. This does not require a cough, merely an infected person breathing in your vicinity. In winter, when you breathe out outside below freezing ‘smoke’ it is just aspirate that ‘freezes’ and becomes visible. Football aficionados see this at Soldier and Lambeau Fields every winter watching Bears and Packers games. The very fine micro-droplet residence time in the air depends on humidity. With higher humidity, they don’t dry out as fast, so remain heavier and sink faster to where they don’t get inhaled, typically minutes. In typical winter indoor low humidity, they dry rapidly and remain circulating in the air for much longer, typically hours. This is also why alcohol hand sanitizers are ineffective against influenza; the main route of flu transmission has nothing to do with hands.

Wuhan Coronavirus

As of this writing, there are a reported 37500 confirmed infections and 811 deaths. Those numbers are about as reliable as GAST in climate change. Many people do not have access to definitive diagnostic kits; China has a habit of reporting an underlying comorbidity (emphysema, COPD, asthma) as cause of death, the now known disease progression means deaths lag diagnoses by 2-3 weeks. A climate analogy is the US surface temperature measurement problems uncovered by the WUWT Surface Stations project.

There are a number of important general facts we DO now know, which together provide directional guidance about whether anyone should be concerned or alarmed. The information is pulled from reasonably reliable sources like WHO, CDC, NIH, and JAMA or NEJM case reports. Plus, we have an inadvertent cruise ship laboratory experiment presently underway in Japan.

The incubation period is about 10-14 days until symptoms (fever, cough) evidence. That is VERY BAD news, because it has been demonstrated beyond question (Germany, Japan, US) that human to human transmission PRECEDES symptoms by about a week. So unlike SARS where all air travelers got a fever screening (mine was to and from a medical conference in Panama City). Since transmission did not precede symptoms, SARS fever screening sufficed; with Wuhan fever screening is futile. That is why all the 14-day quarantines imposed last week; the only way to quarantine Wuhan coronavirus with certainty is to wait for symptoms to appear or not. Quarantine is disruptive and expensive, but very effective.

Once symptoms appear, disease progression is now predictable from sufficient hundreds of case reports—usual corona cold progression for about 7-10 days. But then there is a bifurcation. 75-80% of patients start improving. In 20-25%, they begin a rapid decline into lower respiratory pneumonia. It is a subset of these where the deaths occur with or without ICU intervention. And as whistleblower Dr. Li’s death in Wuhan proves, ICU intervention is no panacea. He was an otherwise healthy 34 years old doctor.

There are two (really now three) key epidemiological numbers: R0 pronounced medically as ‘Rnaught’ (or, as we now know, R0 before and after symptoms). R naught is how many naïves will a single infected individual infect? We know from the Japanese cruise ship Diamond Princess quarantine that R0 is at least ~2. (As of now, 63 diagnosed out of 2667 passengers and ~1100 crew). Since Japan has moved the 63 symptomatic patients to hospital isolation, that same cruise ship may in the next 14 days also provide an experimental symptomless Wuhan R0 estimate. Late revision update, now 69, so asymptomatic R0 is unfortunately above 1.

The second important number is mortality, a virulence metric. We don’t know the mortality rate yet even given 811 deaths/37500 diagnosed. That is because of the multi-week disease progression, even if there were no other data issues. SARS was about 10% in the end (774 deaths from about 8000 diagnosed). The “Spanish flu’ of 1918-19 was also ~10% or perhaps a bit higher (CDC guesstimate is 40-60 million died out of about 500 million infected). BTW, for those wanting to deep dive that last lethal viral pandemic, I highly recommend the NYT best selling book THE GREAT INFLUENZA by John Barry. Wuhan is very unlikely to reach anywhere close to that mortality; otherwise we would already have seen many more deaths.

We also now know from a JAMA report Friday 2/7/2020 analyzing spread of Wuhan coronavirus inside a Wuhan hospital, that 41% of patients were infected within the hospital—meaning the ubiquitous surgical masks DO NOT work as prevention. The shortage of masks is symptomatic of panic, not efficacy.

Scientists last week also traced the source. There are two clues. Wuhan is now known to be 96% genetically similar to an endemic Asian bat corona. Like SARS and ‘Spanish flu’, it jumped to humans via an intermediate mammal species. No bats were sold in the Huanan wet market in Wuhan. But pangolins were, and as of Friday there is a 99% genetic match between pangolin corona and Wuhan human corona. Trade in wild pangolins is illegal, but the meat is considered a delicacy in China and Vietnam and pangolins WERE sold in the Wuhan wet market. This is is similar to SARS in 2003. A bat corona jumped to humans via live civets in another Chinese wet market. Xi’s ‘simple’ permanent SARS/Wuhan coronavirus solution is to ban Chinese wet markets.

This is similar to what is now known about the 1918-19 H1N1 ‘Spanish flu’. It started as a 1917 avian H1N1 (wild duck, Mississippi flyway, fall migration) influenza. It was hosted and incubated in an intermediary species, hogs, in Haskell County, Kansas for the rest of that year. A country doctor tending surprisingly many severe flu cases among hog farmer families as winter 1918 began raised an alarm, but his public health warnings were ignored. Then it jumped from Haskell County, Kansas hog farmers to Camp Funston, Kansas soldiers during winter 1918, where doughboys were training then deploying to Europe to finish the great war. The rest was history, with an R0 guesstimated between 2 and 3.

Conclusions

Should the world be concerned? Perhaps.

Will there be a terrible Wuhan pandemic? Probably not.

Again, the analogy to climate change alarm is striking. Alarm based on lack of underlying scientific knowledge plus unfounded worst case projections.

Proven human to human transmissibility and the likely (since proven) ineffectiveness of surgical masks were real early concerns. But the Wuhan virus will probably not become pandemic, or even endemic.

We know it can be isolated and transmission stopped with 14-day quarantine followed by symptomatic clinical isolation and ICU treatment if needed.

We know from infectivity duration on surfaces that it cannot be spread from China via ship cargo. And cargo ship crews can simply not be given shore leave until their symptomless ocean transit time plus port time passes 14 days.

Eliminating Chinese wet markets and the illegal trade in pangolins prevents another outbreak ever emerging from the wild, unfortunately unlike Ebola.
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phones sigh

i wotever, sounds like your calls are actually going through voicemail. Take alook at the following and try the disable codes on your phone.

Here’s how it’s done:

To enable voicemail:
*61*101**30# Divert to 101 when unanswered after 30 seconds
*62*101# Divert to 101 when unreachable
*67*101# Divert to 101 when busy
*21*101# Divert all calls to 101

To disable voicemail:
#61# Cancel divert when unanswered
#62# Cancel divert when unreachable
#67# Cancel divert when busy
#002# Cancel all diverts

I spent many hours searching for this last night. This thread was the #1 result in Google searches for “Telstra Call Forward codes”, and many of the pages on the Telstra site which deal with call forwarding didn’t show up on Google until the 6th or 7th page. So I thought it would be best to post the actual forward codes in this thread to help anyone else in the future.

To summarize:

Turn on Call Forward: **code*(phone number to forward calls to, including area code)*10#
Turn off call Forward: ##code**10#
Check if forwarding is on: *#code#

Where: “code” is:
21 for “All calls”
61 for “No answer”
62 for “Unreachable”, ie “out of coverage”
67 for “Busy”

Specifically for “no answer”, you can set the duration your phone rings before it diverts using the the following:
**61*(phone number to forward calls to, including area code)**(number of seconds)#

This was compiled from the following Telstra pages (though I will point out that none of the pages mention the “unreachable” diversion – this oversight should be corrected):

https://go.telstra.com.au/helpandsupport/-/turn-call-forward-on
https://go.telstra.com.au/helpandsupport/-/turn-call-forward-off-on-your-mobile
https://go.telstra.com.au/helpandsupport/-/check-if-call-forward-is-turned-on-or-off-on-your-mobile

https://go.telstra.com.au/helpandsupport/-/change-ring-time-before-calls-divert-to-messagebank-on-yo…

View solution in original post

Italian Story

C’era una Volta tre animale si trovano perduto nella bosca. C’erano un cangaru,un wombat u una rana verde dell’alberi.
“Il mio boomerang non ha ritornato” lamentarsi il cangaru con lacrime nel suoi occhi.
“Non fretta “ dice il wombat. “Comprero un nuovo quando torniamo a casa“
“Ma dov’e i nuoi casa“ urlo la piccola rana.”Non la vedo “

“Non ti fretta” dice il wombat ancora.” Stai placida”.
“di un piano”.
“Guarda questa collina davanti” ha detto.
“Cercheriamo di la.
Ma i alberi hanno bloccato il suo visione.
“Fammi aiutare”ha preghato il wombatche era scimmiando sul spalle del cangaru, ma i rami e fogli erano nella via.
La piccola rana ha salvuto il giornata.
Ha saltato nel capo del wombat e ha veduto il tetto rossa della loro casa lontano fa.
“Andiamo”.

Il messagio e semplice quello.
Senta alla rana sempre.

Other endings are possible but hard to say.
We can see further standing on the shoulders of giants.
Three heads are better than one.
Things work out when everyone helps.
Etc.
Can you make up a moral for this story as well?

Italian Story Corrected
C’erano una volta tre animali si trovavano perduti nel bosco. C’erano un cangaro, un wombat e una raganella verde.
“Il mio boomerang non è ritornato” lamentava il cangaro con lacrime agli occhi.
“Non c’è fretta “ disse il wombat. “Ne comprerò uno nuovo quando torniamo a casa“.
“Ma dov’è la nostra casa“ urlò la piccola rana. ”Non la vedo “
“Non c’è fretta” disse il wombat di nuovo.
”Stai calma”
“Ho un piano”.
“Guarda questa collina davanti” disse.
“Cercheriamo là
Ma gli alberi bloccavano la sua veduto.
“Aiutami” ha preghato il wombat che si era arrampicato sul spalle del cangaro, ma i rami e le foglie ostacolavano la veduta.
La piccola rana salvò la giornata.
È saltata sul capo del wombat e ha veduto il tetto rosso della loro casa lontana. “Andiamo”.
Il messagio è semplice.
Ascoltare sempre la raganella.
I cannot think of an Italian saying that would have the same meaning (Lelia)
Other endings are possible but hard to say.
We can see further standing on the shoulders of giants.
Three heads are better than one.
Things work out when everyone helps.
Etc.
Can you make up a moral for this story as well?

Once upon a time there were three animals who found themselves lost in the woods. There were a kangaroo, a wombat and a green tree frog.
“My boomerang didn’t come back” complained the kangaroo with tears in it’s eyes.
“Don’t worry”” said the wombat, I will buy you a new one when we get back home.
“But where is our house?”cried the little frog. “I do not see it”.
“Dont worry” said the wombat again.”Stay calm. I have a plan”
“See that hill in front” he said.
We will search [from] there””.
But the trees blocked his view [blocked him from seeing it?].
Help me” he asked the wombat who climbed on the shoulders of the kangaroo, but the branches and leaves blocked the view.
The little frog saved the day.
He jumped on the head of the wombat and saw the red roof of their house far away.
The message is simple.
Always listen to the tree frog.
or
Don’t go into the woods without a back up frog.
Boomerangs do not always return.
Jump around a lot when you get into trouble.
Have a house that you can easily identify [Isle of Burano story.]
It wont surprise you that Burano is famous for seafood.
The most popular place to eat seafood in Burano is Trattoria al Gatto Nero on Via Giudecca 88.

Are you looking for Causation or Blame?

I get the point that there are
Events caused by Anthropogenic effects
Events caused by Anthropogenic Climate Change
and that the general effect of the latter will cause more harm than the more localised effect of the former.

Attribution of either is complicated leading to a moral and scientific issue.
Are you looking for Causation or Blame?
One is a scientific approach and one a moral approach.

One can of course do both, find a cause and find blame in the same event.
This is helped by using story line approaches as they incorporate a moral lesson in their very definition.
“given that an event has occurred, how might climate change have influenced this event?”

“The claim is that in trying to separate the human influence from the natural variability of weather, extreme event attribution creates a new nature-culture divide.”
People have looked for causation in weather for ever. A rare event, did something I did cause that weather effect? People have always wanted to attribute causation and blame their actions or lack of them to explain misfortunes and occasionally good luck.
Once you attribute Blame or Causation to human action you open a divide between those who want to believe [naturalists] and those who want to understand [culture/science].

“The problem here is that extreme event attribution typically tries to understand how the event might be different because of anthropogenic-driven climate change,”
Even here what you are saying is that extreme events are natural and that in your view human causation might make it worse.
I say worse because if human causation ever made things better you would not feel concerned to investigate it further.
Hence the problem of trying to prove that rare extreme events are ever capable of offering proof of climate warming.
“if we don’t distinguish between natural and anthropogenic influences, how do you then avoid people simply concluding that it’s natural, or using this to argue that it’s natural?”
Hence the crux of the matter, do we tell them a story line to emphasis how bad we believe it may be and only choose, always, the bad side of that story line for emphasis?
– Or do we tell them the truth.

There will be a number of consequences that will become self evident in time.
We cannot prove this conclusively now but believe it to be so.
We are working on improving our attribution to everyone’s satisfaction.
We are not looking to blame or shame anyone.

Probability

angech says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
June 6, 2020 at 11:35 pm
ATTP are we reading this the same way?

“The key results are that for long-timescales (many decades) internal variability contributes little to the total uncertainty (essentially, it averages out).”

I do not see this as the key finding, rather a statement of the parameters being put in.
By definition internal variability is defined as fluctuations around some predetermined real value.
As time goes by the fluctuations balance out and the true value is revealed shed of dross. In other words it must always reduce to zero

Atomsk’s Sanakan @AtomsksSanakan. May 27
“Update thread citing published studies, along with comments debunking Judith Curry’s cherry-picking in the service of ideologically-motivated denialism on hydroxychloroquine:“

Missing in action. Why?
Lancelet study Chloroquine Debunked
New England Journal of medicine. Debunked same author

Most of the studies you quote have been extremely hastily put together with pal not peer review and rushed into print.
They all have massive flaws consequent.
As they fall apart, one by one, will you guarantee to return here and issue a mea culpa for your mudslinging?

The fact that you’re still willfully ignoring the fact that previously reputable Journals have thrown science out the window is expected from a committed ideologue.

How to redeem a scrap of integrity, if you ever wanted.
Be more skeptical in the right way.
Put up lists of both sides.
Just for fun and fairness.
There are papers out there for hydroxychloroquine.
Give their references too.

As an aside, Atom, I was extremely unbelieving at first based on my medical training. Chloroquine was an antimalarial drug. And a cramp treatment.
Viruses and bacteria or parasites are extremely different and require different mechanisms of treatment.
The medications being for totally different reasons would normally never treat both types of life forms.
My rationale for non belief was based on science, what I had been taught up until that moment.

That changed when I learnt of the mechanisms of interfering with viral RNA reproduction in cells. Scientifically proven.
Are you aware of that?
Of course you are, petal.
Research dating back to 2004 or earlier as an antiviral.
Are you aware of that?
If not, why not?

Why knock the study of it as a helpful treatment when we have precious little else?
You show a great interest in scientific topics.
You certainly have a skeptical mind, with blinkers on.

Ideology.
If the drug does work you would have to thank Trump for helping promote it.
Guess your attitude is best summed up by better millions die than Trump gets any credit, even if vicarious ( He did not invent it though he might take credit).
What a great and commendable attitude, man.

WordPress.com / Gravatar.com credentials can be used.

In defense of Roger Pielke jun

Atomsk,
I get the drift that the scenario itself is not the outcome
and that the scenario does not have to be real.
and that therefore, a scenario may not be a prediction, only a conditional prediction.

The problem is that you cannot usefully cleave [split] a scenario and a prediction in this way without losing the meaning of both words.

For your analogy I agree that one does not usually try to prove the precept is wrong to show that the outcome is wrong.
That is because a precept or scenario is not falsifiable, You determine the input.
If one uses a different input one would would have to put up a different output.
A scenario can only be a scenario if it is predicating [and hence predicting] a future outcome.

If the situation the scenario is attempting to mimic is shown by time to be different to the assumptions you used that is not a failure of the scenario.
Reality is a different scenario and you cannot falsify either by comparing the outcomes.

RP and I have never tried ” to claim a conditional projection failed, since they claim a predicted scenario didn’t occur.”
It is wrong to say that.
A more apt analogy would be that the child placed it’s hand on the hot stove and it did not burn.

In this case the fact that you claimed the stove was hot enough to burn the child’s hand is wrong.
You did not put enough wood in the fire [wrong assumptions] or did not light the match [check the starting conditions were as you said] or did not run it long enough [dodgy thermometers].

I do not mind people bagging my arguments but I do mind people bagging their opponents unjustly.
Fair enough with me, i make misunderstandings.
Roger Pielke is a true scientist, brought up in a scientific family and background and does not make basic misunderstandings of concepts.like scenario’s and it is just plain wrong to say that he does.

ATTP
“If there’s warming then I think you still need some kind of flux imbalance. My understanding is that quite soon after a perturbation (say, an increase in atmospheric CO2) the LW fluxes can return to balance, but the cloud feedback leads to an imbalance in the SW fluxes, which then dominates the subsequent warming.”
izen “The increase in surface temperature is a result in the greater thermalisation of OLR from the surface in the lower layers of the atmosphere, not in a imbalance in the energy flux for the whole system.”

“If there’s warming then I think you still need some kind of flux imbalance” This bit is very true but emphasises the problem raised by Izen.
If warming is occurring there must be a flux imbalance.
We see this every day when the sun comes up. The GHG concentration does not change **[much] but the atmosphere heats up and the radiating layer goes much further outward.
So some energy has been garnished from the sun and thermalised.

But what happens when the heat input stabilizes say just after midday[** more provisos].
For a short period of tome the energy in equals the energy out as everything is in balance.
Then the radiating layer contracts as the atmosphere cools.

Does the CO2 level affect this pattern? No [* more provisos].
What it does affect though is the amount of atmospheric thermalisation that day.
The atmosphere will be warmer with more CO2 in it.
Not in 100 years but at that lovely moment of equibrilation.
Which occurs every day, usually after midday, though it might occur several times around that time due to albedo cloud changes.

ATTP “quite soon after a perturbation (say, an increase in atmospheric CO2) the LW fluxes can return to balance,”
OK
” but the cloud feedback leads to an imbalance in the SW fluxes, which then dominates the subsequent warming.”

Not sure of this. Feedbacks occur including clouds which is more part of the expected imbalance due to the change in incoming heat.
The SW fluxes can only be variable due to the variable albedo? They temporarily alter the actual heat input which is why you might have several moments of equilibrium usually after midday. The longterm feedback effect amplification is more due to increased GHG [water vapour] in the air raising the ECS not the SW effects.

What responsibility, Doc

Joshua says:
“At any rate – the point being to respect the uncertainty, until we have better data.”
Why start now?
It is a bit late.
Plus it is more than the data,
Every Pandemic presents something novel so past experience does not guide future results.
What was that story about the fellow with the lion on the loose.
Sometimes you have to respect the uncertainty,
Sometimes you have to run. April 28, 2020 at 3:31 am

Mal Adapted
What responsibility, Doc? What are your expectations of scientists? What do you expect from yourself, your family, your neighbors, your country? Just who is responsible for AGW?
IMO, your comment reveals how alien the culture of science is to you.

The line
” d) maintaining research practices that normalize careless use of scenarios in a vacuum of plausibility,” came from Bete Noir, R.P. Who also said,
“As a consequence, the climate research community is presently off-track. Attempts to address scenario misuse within the community have thus far not worked.”

I added “Not to mention a vacuum of responsibility.”.
I fail to see the difference between what he is saying and what I appended, if something is used in a non plausible fashion it is being used irresponsibly.

Very difficult to answer questions about responsibility. It tends to get conflated with blame [responsibility for doing something wrong].
Do you want me to be responsible? I.e. Do things the way you want me to do them.
Do you want me to be responsible . I.e. the cause of AGW? [ or Collectively with skeptics or with humanity?].

I think you have asked a very important question epistemologically.
I do understand where you are coming from, a genuine care for the world.

500

In summary we have basically learned or revised the game in the best way.
By playing hands with other people, making mistakes and testing the rules.
It is a great card game, a little complicated by those darn Jacks or Bowers  and by those people who insist on trying Misere.

I hope we can get back up running in the near future.
We have had 30 people through who now know each other a little better. I would hope that some of you can contact others and have some games at home perhaps.

Today we are giving out some small prizes to those lucky people who first call and make 10 of a suit contract, a misere or a No trump bid at the 7 level. There will also be a prize for the person who first picks up a Joker and a bower in their suit contract.

In summary, be bold if you can. Give other people a chance and bid 6 spades in opening position if you have nothing to bid, at least your partner will not get carried away.
4 top cards eg AK, AK, with a joker to bid 6 No Trumps.
5 in a suit with a joker or bower and an outside ace to call a trump suit at the 6 level.
You cannot bid Misere after passing or if the 7 level has not been reached.

Today’s lesson was to be on “Finessing” or trapping an opponents king when you hold the A and Queen. You should lead another suit to partner asking for a lead back in the next suit up if they ever get in.

Lead a spade if you want a club lead, lead a cub for a diamond , a diamond for a heart and a heart for a spade.

WILLIS

  • angech says:

    Bindidon
    Are you serious?

    Yes.
    Outgoing radiation is measured in terms of W/square metres from the top of the atmosphere by satellite on average 100 km out.

    You cannot measure it any other way.

    It is 240 W/TOASqM.
    This figure would have a lot more energy in it if converted to W/SqM earth surface.
    One cannot balance an energy balance by balancing incompatible terms.

    TOA measurements are prone to very large SD.
    My understanding is that what the earth would put out per sq M at the TOA surface equals what is put out at a much higher temperature at the earth’s surface.
    They are equivalent.
    There should not be any loss of energy at the TOA.
    The amount of energy should be equal.
    The GHG back radiation is needed to build the earth surface up to the required radiating temp.
    Very disappointed that no one else can see this.

Would you mind explaining how and where the Total outgoing IR to space is calculated? 240 W/M2 but where is the meter located?
The energy budget works on the amount of energy calculated on its way to the earths surface and at the earths surface.
But the outgoing IR to space is not coming from the surface.
That has to be the emitted surface radiation, 395 W/M 2.
The radiation emitted to space is the radiation out at the TOA.
This is a concern because any radiation measured or assumed to be 240 W/M 2 at a level of 100 km [TOA surface area 526.2 million km² Radius: 6,471 km].
cannot be the same as radiation measured at the Earth Surface area [510.1 million km² Radius: 6,371 km.

The maths in the energy budget just becomes wrong.
If the outgoing energy has been adjusted to earth circumference the true TIA must be higher and then would not agree with what your instruments measure in terms of outgoing flux.
So are the instruments you use measuring true outgoing radiation at TOA
which is per square meter of the TOA surface area, what I would expect.
If so how can anyone use this figure 240 W/M2 to balance an energy equation based on square meters at earth Surface level.

I am sorry to be a nuisance.
You have offered to try to get the message across on IR which I hopefully get.
Could you please point out where the basic error I am making is?Enough already.
I do not care what religion anyone is.
That is their business, right or wrong.
I do not care how religion treats science.
Their gain or loss.
Discuss the science or lack of it only.
I do know that most nearly all science has evolved within the religious frameworks of nearly all societies.
Zoroastrian, Hindu, Chinese, Aztec, Arabic as in Jewish, Christian and Moslem in order of appearance. Multiple other religions current and extinguished have had scientists in their ranks.
Our greatest modern scientists in the western world have had strong religious beliefs, Galileo and Newton for starters.
I think we should treat our great scientists with the respect they deserve for the work they have done. Christy and Spencer should probably get a Nobel Prize for the more than 30 years of dedicated work and theorizing they have put in.
They won’t.
Thank you DG for your comments which were expressed much better.
Can we please drop the religious attacks and concentrate on the science” Much of the first part of Dr. Ollila’s article is just fine. His objection to the diagram is introduced with the following statement, which those who hold similar views to his will be triggered by:

“The obvious reason for the GH effect seems to be the downward infrared radiation from the atmosphere to the surface and its magnitude is 345 W/m2. Therefore, the surface absorbs totally 165 (solar) + 345 (downward infrared from the atmosphere) = 510 W/m2.“

But this is where the problem with ambiguous wording comes in. The atmosphere is not, strictly speaking, adding more [“New”] energy to the surface. It is merely returning a portion of the atmosphere-absorbed solar, infrared, and convective transport energy back to the surface in the form of infrared energy.

As shown in Fig. 2, the surface is still emitting more IR energy than the atmosphere is returning to the surface, resulting in net surface loss of [395 – 345 =] 50 W/m2 of infrared energy. And, as previously mentioned, all energy fluxes at the surface balance.

And this is what our intuition tells us should be happening: the surface is warmed by sunlight, and cooled by the loss of IR energy (plus moist and dry convective cooling of the surface of 91 and 24 W/m2, respectively.)”


Therefore, the surface absorbs totally 165 (solar) + 345 (downward infrared from the atmosphere) = 510 W/m2.“ Yes
the surface is still emitting more IR energy than the atmosphere is returning to the surface, resulting in net surface loss of [395 – 345 =] 50 W/m2 of infrared energy. Yes
Plus (plus moist and dry convective cooling of the surface of 91 and 24 W/m2, respectively.)” = 165 W/M-2 The surface absorbed solar radiation] Yes

So far I agree with both of you?

But Ollila” The difference between the radiation to the surface and the net solar radiation is 510 – 240 = 270 Wm-2. The real GH warming effect is right here: it is 270 Wm-2 because it is the extra energy warming the Earth’s surface in addition to the net solar energy.”

This is the magical energy from nowhere step you are referring to? Because , as you say, The atmosphere is not, strictly speaking, adding more [“New”] energy to the surface.
Ollila actually acknowledges this in his article ” According to the energy conversation law, energy cannot be created from the void. According to the same law, energy does not disappear, but it can change its form.” but ploughs ahead.

“The final step is that we must find out what is the mechanism creating this infrared radiation from the atmosphere. According to the IPCC’s definition, the GH effect is caused by the GH gases and clouds which absorb infrared radiation of 155 Wm-2 emitted by the surface and which they further radiate to the surface. This same figure has been applied by the research group of Gavin Schmidt calculating the contributions of GH gases and clouds. As we can see there is a problem – and a very big problem – in the IPCC’s GH effect definition: the absorbed energy of 155 Wm-2 cannot radiate to the surface 345 Wm-2 or even 270 Wm-2.”

Here I go off the rails.
“If we were to represent these infrared energy flows in Fig. 1 more completely, there would be a nearly infinite number of red arrows, both upward and downward, connecting every vanishingly-thin layer of atmosphere with every other vanishingly thin layer. Those are the flows that are happening continuously in the atmosphere.”

I presume that the ” net surface loss of [395 – 345 =] 50 W/m2 of infrared energy.” which is all that is left over when “moist and dry convective cooling of the surface of 91 and 24 W/m2, respectively.” is removed from the “initial surface absorbs totally 165 (solar)” is actually doing far more than rebounding just once and going off into space. There would be a limiting factor at 345 W/M-2 which is how much energy bounces back repeatedly until it can escape?

Dr Ollila’s summary of heat sources
” it is easy to name the two other energy sources which are needed for causing the GH effect namely latent heating 91 Wm-2 and sensible heating 24 Wm-2, which make 270 Wm-2 with the longwave absorption of 155 Wm-2. When the solar radiation absorption of 75 Wm-2 by the atmosphere will be added to these three GH effect sources, the sum is 345 Wm2.”
explains why it is a little more complicated than that in that some of the IR comes from the effects of the IR radiation from other parts of the atmosphere but I am not sure where he gets the longwave absorption of 155 Wm-2.

Ah.
It is the fact that the surface emission is higher than the TOA radiation to space so energy [quite a lot] must somehow be be being trapped in the atmosphere.

“Now, I have spent at least a couple of hours trying to follow his line of reasoning, and I cannot.”

Dr Ollila’s reasoning “Here is the point: the IPCC’s definition means that the LW absorption of 155 Wm-2 could create radiation of 270 Wm-2 which is impossible.”

“The Role of Earth Radiation Budget Studies in Climate and General Circulation Research“ Ramanathan
The greenhouse effect. The estimates of the outgoing longwave radiation also lead to quantitative inferences about the atmospheric greenhouse effect. At a globally averaged temperature of 15°C the surface emits about 390 W m -2, while according to satellites, the long-wave radiation escaping to space is only 237 W m -2. Thus the absorption and emission of long-wave radiation by the intervening atmospheric gases and clouds cause a net reduction of about 150 W m -2 in the radiation emitted to space. This trapping effect of radiation, referred to as the greenhouse effect, plays a dominant role in governing the temperature of the planet.”‘

Dr Ollila has a point. the surface emits about 390 W m -2, the long-wave radiation escaping to space is said to be only 237 W m -2. [where ??TOA or earth’s surface vitally important]
How can anybody say this ” a net reduction of about 150 W m -2 in the radiation emitted to space.”
The earth has had Greenhouses gases for over 2 billion years, possibly 4 billion.
How hot should we be if our planet can keep trapping 150W/M-2 for 2 billion years?

  • “Now, this is curious. On average the change at the surface is a little less than half the TOA greenhouse effect change. So an increase of 3.7 W/m2 at the TOA from a doubling of CO2 becomes a 1.8 W/m2 increase at the surface.”
    “The key is to realize that the atmosphere is not heated by just Ramanathan’s ~150 W/m2.”

    Hate that diagram.
    Trying to explain things
    There is a TOA of 237 W/m2.
    At this level 100 km above the earth the incoming energy that is not reflected exactly balances the outgoing energy 237 W/m2.
    The surface of the earth is radiating at 392 W/m2.
    This is amazingly higher than the 342 W/m2. from the total incoming reflected and incident solar radiation.
    The GHG effect is basically to add 321 W/m2. of back radiation to the heating of the earth surface to the 169 W/m2. from the incident solar radiation that reaches the earth.
    Basically the surface should be at a temperature commensurate with 490 W/m2. ie hotter than it is.
    It emits however at 392 W/m2.giving I presume a temp of 15C, because the other 98 W/m2. is lost by sensible heat 10 W/m2. and latent heat 18 W/m2.

    Now there is no Ramanathan 150 W/m2. being absorbed all the time. Some energy has to absorbed to raise the temperature of the air and surface but this is almost instantaneous and trivial when considering all those hydrogen bombs of energy going through the atmosphere every second. Air temperature changes very quickly night to day. Once it is warmed up there is no 150 W/m2. being drained into an atmospheric greenhouse battery all the time.
    The energy in equals the energy out at the TOA.

    Now why do we have a seeming TOA imbalance from the surface when there is not one at the TOA?
    Because we are not comparing oranges with oranges.
    The total energy absorbed at the surface is for a much smaller sphere.
    Earth Surface area: 510.1 million km² Radius: 6,371 km energy emitted 392.
    TOA surface area 526.2 million km² Radius: 6,471 km energy emitted 237.
    Is this enough to make these 2 figures equal is what I would like someone to answer.
    On the surface it does not look likely but?

    One cannot take energy figures per square meter of a much larger sphere from energy figures for a much smaller sphere without doing a calibration for surface area and attenuation.

  • Hmm seems the outgoing IR is measured at the TOA 100 KM out so spread over a bigger sphere surface area but the energy going into the ground is measured at earth surface area a smaller sphere so the energy budget diagrams are technically out of whack.
    Technically the two have to balance to have a TOA in the first place

    OLR is a critical component of the Earth’s energy budget, and represents the total radiation going to space emitted by the atmosphere.[3] OLR contributes to the net all-wave radiation for a surface which is equal to the sum of shortwave and long-wave down-welling radiation minus the sum of shortwave and long-wave up-welling radiation.[4] The net all-wave radiation balance is dominated by long-wave radiation during the night and during most times of the year in the polar regions.[5] Earth’s radiation balance is quite closely achieved since the OLR very nearly equals the Shortwave Absorbed Radiation received at high energy from the sun. Thus, the Earth’s average temperature is very nearly stable

    • angech January 21, 2020 at 11:04 pm

      Hmm seems the outgoing IR is measured at the TOA 100 KM out so spread over a bigger sphere surface area but the energy going into the ground is measured at earth surface area a smaller sphere so the energy budget diagrams are technically out of whack.

      Angtech, I would be shocked if this were not taken into consideration. Scientists are often foolish but rarely dumb. Hang on, let me run the numbers …

      … OK, The surface area of a sphere varies as R^2. The CERES satellites are actually at an altitude of about 500 km., not 100. That means that the area of the sphere where the satellites orbit is about 16.3% larger than the earth’s surface. The idea that scientists wouldn’t bot notice and adjust for a potential error of 16% is simply not reasonable.

      w.

  • angech January 21, 2020 at 10:14 pm Edit

    “Now, this is curious. On average the change at the surface is a little less than half the TOA greenhouse effect change. So an increase of 3.7 W/m2 at the TOA from a doubling of CO2 becomes a 1.8 W/m2 increase at the surface.”

    “The key is to realize that the atmosphere is not heated by just Ramanathan’s ~150 W/m2.”


    Hate that diagram.

    Back up. Explain what it is that you hate about my diagram. It is a representation of the simplest possible layout of the energy flows. Just what is it that you “hate” about it?

    Now, I drew that up about 20 years ago because of the problems with the Trenberth version, which has lots of handwaving. Mine, on the other hand, obeys the physical laws—energy is conserved at all levels, and radiation up = radiation down.

    Now, the numbers are slightly out per CERES … but then two decades ago I didn’t have CERES data. But other than that … what’s wrong with it?

    Finally, the top layer is not 500 km out, or a hundred KM out. The bottom layer of the stratosphere is the effective radiating layer. We know this from the brightness temperature of the radiation. It’s at about 10 km. This difference in altitude introduces an error of 0.3% in the simplified energy diagram … lost in the noise.

    w.

    • Willis,
      I notice that you’ve got, (in your diagram), 321 watts/sq.m of “backradiation” from the “greenhouse” gases coming down from the atmosphere and absorbed by the surface.
      According to the diagram you only get 169 watts/sq.m impinging on the surface from the sun…the sun Willis,… in summer hot enough to melt tar on the roads.
      I was wondering if you leave your bacon and eggs out on the porch overnight and have them cooked for you in the morning by that backradiation from the atmosphere.?

      • Mack January 22, 2020 at 2:47 am

        Willis,
        I notice that you’ve got, (in your diagram), 321 watts/sq.m of “backradiation” from the “greenhouse” gases coming down from the atmosphere and absorbed by the surface.
        According to the diagram you only get 169 watts/sq.m impinging on the surface from the sun…the sun Willis,… in summer hot enough to melt tar on the roads.
        I was wondering if you leave your bacon and eggs out on the porch overnight and have them cooked for you in the morning by that backradiation from the atmosphere.?

        Summer roads are not heated by the average radiation of 169 W/m2. They’re heated by something like a kilowatt per square metre or so of sunshine, plus thermal radiation from the atmosphere.

        Next, it seems you think that the idea that the atmosphere emits thermal radiation to be somehow incredible or impossible. Not sure why. It’s been measured, not theorized but measured, thousands and thousands of times by scientists around the planet.

        w.

        • Well, I thought those numbers would have pricked up your ears, Willis I would have thought that 321 watts/ sq.m. of “backradiation” belting down from the ATMOSPHERE 24/7, would have triggered some form of thought process in your head….. particularly since it’s nearly TWICE the amount of solar radiation impinging upon the surface.! Is there nothing about that which really unsettles you? Is there nothing about that which says…”hang on, there could be some mistake in these diagrams.” ?

          • Thanks, Mack. You clearly think downwelling longwave infrared radiation is imaginary.

            Me, I know that it’s been measured all over the planet by scientists. It’s measured at all the SURFRAD sites. It’s measured by the TAO buoys. It’s measured at the ARM sites.

            Do you truly think that those hundreds of scientists are just making it up?

            Also, if the ? 169 w/m2 of sunlight was the only thing heating the surface, it would be at about -40°C or so … is there nothing about that which really unsettles you?

            w.

          • Willis Eschenbach January 23, 2020 at 12:35 am

            Also, if the ? 169 w/m2 of sunlight was the only thing heating the surface, it would be at about -40°C or so …

            Why do you keep pushing this radiative balance temperature nonsense?
            If the surface temperatures on Earth were in radiative balance with incoming solar we would see temperature swings from ~3K during the night to 365K or higher during the day.
            Is not happening.
            169 W/m^2 is ~14,6 MJ/m^2 over 24 hrs. This seems close to the world average as shown in these charts:
            https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/properties-of-sunlight/isoflux-contour-plots
            14,6 MJ/m^2 between sunrise and sunset is enough energy to INCREASE the temperature of the upper 4 m of ocean water 1K.
            Has nothing to do with RADIATIVE balance.
            Backradiation does not warm the surface, it reduces the energy loss from the surface to the atmosphere. Otherwise we would see your 321 W/m^2 + ~1000 W/m^2 at noon giving temperatures of ~390K.

1 metre by 1 metre by 1 metre concrete block floating in outer space.
The block is insulated on four sides, a perfect insulator, no heat at all is lost from the four insulated sides.
the emissivity “epsilon” and absorptivity across the spectrum are both 0.95.
the thermal conductivity “k” of the concrete is equal to 0.8 watts per metre per kelvin (0.8 W/m K^-1)
it gets full-time sunshine on the front side at a rate of 1360 watts per square metre (W/m2).
what will be the temperature T_hot of the hot side and the temperature T_cold of the opposite cold side?

At a 1 molecule thinness the temperature on both sides would be equal hence half as hot as expected if the back surface was also insulated. 65.67C
At a million metres the back surface would be at a very low temperature just above 62 K.
This would be enough to drain the minute amount of energy that makes it across the block.
Th surface of the block receiving radiation has to heat up to a higher temperature to force heat across the concrete gradient. The maximum it can heat to is double the energy it absorbs.
The soldering iron I think someone referred to it as.

129.77 C or 512.92K is the Temp of the hot side.
Similar range to the surface of the moon different albedo.

The cold side is more difficult. The bulk of the thermal mass built up by absorption of energy is at the heated end which radiates most of the radiation back out.
The small amount that “conducts” 0.8 watts per metre per kelvin finally gives that level to the other side which immediately radiates it into space giving it a temp of -210.4 C or 62.75 K